Canadian rr porcelain beehives

[g lass & g lad]

IT IS MY HOPE THAT YOU DO NOT POST IN THIS THREAD UNTILL AT LEAST THE FULL GROUP IS DONE.

BEFORE STARTING , I WANT TO THANK GEORGE PORRIER FOR HIS YEARS OF HELP , AND RICK HESS , ROBIN HARRISON AND JOSH GUISINGER FOR THE USE OF THEIR PICTURES .

DWIGHT DODGE DESERVES A SPECIAL NOTE , FOR HIS VERY IN DEAPTH SITE , THAT STARTED ME ON THE SEARCH FOR A MORE CLEAR UNDERSTANDING OF THESE.

THIS WILL NOT BE THE END , OF ALL THERE IS TO UNDERSTAND ON THESE , BUT IS PUT FORWARD TO BRING NEW INFO AND THOUGHT. Pete

[g lass & g lad]

First a note on porcelain production.
There are three methods of forming insulators with porcelain. Casting , Wet Process and Dry Process. ( taken from Jack Tod's book.)

# 1 ... Casting . A very wet clay "slip" is poured into the plaster mould ,the plaster absorbs some of the moisture and the insulator shrinks away from the mould . In these insulators , we are dealing with ( 1910 + era aprox. ) they are hand made . The inside profile would be made secondly and the threads added later. The New Lexington ones were made in this way , as they used a plaster mould.

# 2 ... Wet Process . These are made , for the ones we are looking at ( from Pittsburg ) by hand pressing a firm wet clay , into the rotating mould and then a jiggering tool is used to form the inside profile and threads are added later by a plunge and reverse method.

NOTE ( A few found with almost a threadless look would be when the threading tool was not reversed when withdrawn.
A brown small bee-hive , and a few of another form , with "Johnson Bros. Manchester " stamped on the dome , fall into this feature . They were not threadless by design.
Johnson Bros. Manchester only started in 1882 , so these would be after that date .)

This type are hand trimmed.
The later ones with the colored logo, CNR ,CPR, GTP etc. are made in Czechoslovakia . They would likely be after semi and automatic machines did the pressing and trimming .

# 3 ... Dry Process . These , in the ones we are looking at , are Canadian made.
The wet or plastic clay is dried to about 12% moisture . It is then granulated , it becomes like snow , when packed it becomes a hard substance and takes a form .
The material is pressed into a steel mould , usually a 3 part .

NOTE ... " Pittsburg " is used in text for the Pittsburg High Voltage Insulator Co. in Derry Pennsylvania .

NOTE ... I believe the Canadian made at St Johns Quebec in the Dry Process , the " Yukon " and CPR , CNR , & No Marking , were about 1898 -99 Yukon , & 1908 -1910 CPR & CNR .

NOTE ... The " New Lexington " is used for the , New Lexington High Voltage Porcelain Co. in New Lexington Ohio .
Elton Gish has them ending then . ( more on this later )


I , with this old clip from a 1911 RR book will try to give ( my ) apox. era's for each insulator group.
Railway Age Gazette

New York, NY, Friday, July 7, 1911
vol. 51, no. 1, p. 12, col. 2

INSULATORS.

During the period from 1887 to about 1898, the Canadian Pacific Railway
Company used white porcelain insulators on a portion of the long through
wires. These were of German or British manufacture. An elaborate series of
tests proved their great superiority over glass from a mechanical
standpoint, the average blow necessary to break a porcelain being three
times that required to break the glass insulator. It was also discovered
that usually a porcelain insulator was only partially destroyed when hit by
a stone and that the wire was not set free and remained fastened to each
pole, but the glass insulator was so badly shattered that the wire would be
freed and this frequently resulted in a cross with other wires which
remained attached to the pole. This advantage was offset to some extent by
the fact that, on account of the porcelain insulator being white, it offered
a much better mark and was the one aimed at. The price of the porcelain
insulator was increased until it reached about nine cents each laid down in
Montreal, and its use by us, therefore, abandoned for some years. The glass
insulator with which we were supplied then depreciated in quality,
apparently on account of improper annealing, and appeals or complaints to
the manufacturers resulted in no improvement; and, as the cost of the
porcelain insulator was again very largely reduced, we have purchased
nothing but white porcelain for the past three years.

Last year we procured porcelain insulators from Canada, the United States
and Germany. One make turned out to have defective insulation properties,
and we had a series of tests made comparing the three manufactures and
glass. All of the insulators were of the same pattern and dimensions. One
dozen insulators of each make, selected at random, were placed on pins in
the open air, and frequent readings taken of insulation, humidity,
temperature and barometer. During the tests the weather was of nearly every
description, from dry cold to sleet, wet snow and rain. These tests proved
that in every respect the German and United States insulators had from 5 to
10 times the insulating qualities of the Canadian and glass insulators, the
two former giving practically the same results with a slight difference in
favor of the German, and the Canadian porcelain and glass almost on a par.
Tests of wires after erection show the same differences. — W. J. Camp (C. P.
R.) before Railway Telegraph Superintendents.


Over the next several posts I hope to bring some understanding to the types of porcelain beehives used on Canadian Railroad lines.

[g lass & g lad]

Canadian Dry Process Insulators.

About a year ago , I was on a site belonging to Dwight Dodge . He had written , that the large white insulators used on the Yukon line , were made in Canada.

On mailing him , for a source for the info , he sent me a clip
From Dwight.
"The information that I used was obtained from a publication entitled British Columbia Historical News Vol. 15, No 2 Winter 1982.
"No. 8 galvanized iron wire was ordered from J. A. Seybold & Company in Great Britain. White porcelain insulators were supplied by the St. John's Potteries in Quebec. Oak insulator brackets were supplied by Firstbrook Brothers in Toronto. (footnote) Deputy Minister Public Works to J. Israel Tarte, Dec. 18, 1899, R.G. 11, vol. 1308."

That was his reply .
Recently I posted this to the ICON digest , and with input from Robin Harrison and Rick Hess , I came to more fully understand the Canadian made porcelain.

A page from an old book , showed that in 1910 the CPR did tests , which showed.

These tests proved that in every respect the German and United States insulators had from 5 to 10 times the insulating qualities of the Canadian and glass insulators, the two former giving practically the same results with a slight difference in favor of the German, and the Canadian porcelain and glass almost on a par. Tests of wires after erection show the same differences. - W. J. Camp (C. P. R.) before ! Railway Telegraph Superintendents.

This failing on the part of Canadian made insulators , was due to them being made in the Dry Process.

Add to this that the CPR and CNR have the unusual very pointy pin hole top , which is the same as the Yukon ones which we know are made in Quebec. I fully accept these as Canadian made.

We find in collecting that we have CNR and CPR in these dry process type. As well as Unmarked and the "Yukon "

The CNR .... has deeply incised letters . It is for the most part of a uniform size and shape.
White glaze is known. Most likely around the 1908 - 1910 time frame , being dropped after the tests done by the CPR
For those with Mark Lauckner's book they are 15-A . The pin hole is pointed .
There are 2 slight variants in logo letters.
These have a tapered base , with a ridge drip , before going into the pin cavity.

The CPR .... however , comes in 3 sizes . All have fancy or serifed letters .
White glaze is known. They are of the 1908 - 1910 time frame .
Mark's book has them as 15-B . The pin hole is pointed .
These have a tapered base , with a ridge drip , before going into the pin cavity.

No Marking ....I do not have one of these . White glaze is known. Again likely 1908 - 1910 .
These would be 19-A in Mark's book . They seem smaller than the smallest CPR or 15-B.
These have a Grooved Base .

The "Yukon" . So called because it was used primarilly on the line that ran to the Yukon in British Colombia.
Some though have been picked in Eastern Ontario.
It is also a dry process , some come with the pointy pin hole , others with a flat top to the pin hole .
Most are the same size .
They can be found in a scarce brown glaze , and the normal white glaze.
Listed as # 21 in Mark's book.
These have a Grooved Base. They are of the 1899 -1900 time frame .

Now a note on my thoughts , on the Grooved Base.
We have info showing ( in Mark's book ) that the Buller Jobson Catalogue , of 1890-95 listed "Gisborne Canadian" and "Gisborne Pattern" .
NOTE .. I've been informed that the Buller Jobson was in the 1885 - 90 time frame.
This predates the Yukon ( 1899) . It would with certainty , also predate the type 19 , No Marking.
So Gisbourne would have specified the form and size of an insulator , to be made in Britain.
He most likely took the form from Canadian glass beehives with a grooved base.
This base , can be seen later , in the Dwight Pattern glass insulator , which was a copy of this porcelain base.

IN THE PIC'S . # 3 YOU CAN SEE ON THE LEFT THE NORMAL CPR SIZE , CENTER THE NORMAL CNR ,RIGHT THE BIG CPR .
IN PIC #4 THESE ARE ALL CPR 3 FORMS
PIC #5 IS DONATED BY ROBIN HARRISON , IT IS THE FIRST ON THE LEFT THAT IS THE UNMARKED CANADIAN MADE ONE.
EACH PIC IS CAPTIONED WITH THE CORRECT INFO , CHECK THEM FOR REFERANCE.

[g lass & g lad]

There was some confusion as to the maker of the WET PROCESS pieces with Canadian RR logo's .

For a time it was thought that all of the incised CPR & CNR wet process items were made at Pittsburg .

Yet in Robin Plewes #20 ICON post , we find a mould , found at the Consumers Insulator Co. at New Lexington Ohio.

This was the New lexington High Voltage Porcelain Co. at the time we are looking at , pre 1912.
This item was found by Josh Guisinger .

In matching the mould , I found that the ones made there are type 14-B in Mark Lauckner's book.
It and another will be dealt with in a following post.

PITTSBURG MADE WET PROCESS , CPR & CNR

NOTE These all have slightly rounded bases ( because of trimming ) with a small ridge at the top of the inside skirt .

C . P . R . . Most of these are of a uniform size . Yet some come with longer skirts .
They are 14-A in Mark's book . They come in white glaze .
Top of pin hole varies, from quite flat to a few rings and a concave center or slight shallow point .
These would have been after the 1910 test .

The most important factor in determining these is . .. Note the "R" in C . P . R .
The leg of the R goes down at a fairly straight angle. The leg also starts at the far end of the loop of the R .
These have periods .

C . N . R . . Again , for the most part uniform size , yet again skirt height can vary .
These are 14-A in Mark's book . They come in white glaze , with as listed in Mark's book , a few in brown .
Same pin types as above .
I would put these as being after the small CNR's below , the moulds returned to the regular print .

C.N.R. ...These are in small letters , stamped ( often hard to see ) over the CPR that is listed above .
This CNR stamp is in a block that leaves an impression , it was put on after the insulator was removed from the mould.
These may have been the first CNR made by Pittsburg. 1913 aprox .

C.N.R. ...This is an identical , small letter CNR . that is not over a CPR .
This CNR logo is NOT in a block and would have been impressed in the mould. Again white glaze. Again 14-A in Mark's book. Again pin hole is varied. Soon after the ones above 1913 + .

C . P . R . Exchange double groove . Lettering is the same, as the other CPR . There are a couple different moulds that these were made in. White glazed . # 23 in Mark's book . Pin hole is varied . Likely 1910+

These insulators would have been first purchased in 1910 .
With the CNR ones1913 + following the CPR . See the CNR in the New Lexington post , ( next )

PIC'S #1 IS THE CNR OVER THE CPR & NORMAL CPR . #2 IS THE CPR CHANGED TO A CNR & JUST CNR . #3 IS CNR OVER CPR THE R OF CPR CAN BE SEEN HORIZONTAL JUST RIGHT OF THE SMALL CNR . #4 IS FULL SIZE CNR & CPR SIDE .#5 IS CPR EXCHANGE 2 PROFILES . #6 IS CNR & CPR LARGE LOGO'S

[g lass & g lad]

NEW LEXINGTON

In this post I will deal with the mould , found by Josh Guisinger at Lexington Ohio.

In around 1911, I would suspect, the CNR followed the lead of the CPR in dropping the Dry Process insulators made in Canada .
They had the New Lexington High Voltage Porcelain Co. , in New Lexington Ohio , make the CNR that is 14-B ,in Mark's book .
In this item, we have an insulator that is made in the Casting method , a plaster mold is used , and a wet slip clay is poured into it.
These moulds could be reproduced , by a metal form being put in plaster , till it hardened .

In looking at the sides , above the wire ridge , we see that the sides of the insulator going to the dome , are straight , not a normal curve as in the other ones made of porcelain, or even glass .
The pin hole is similar to the Pittsburg .
The identifying features are the straight sides , and the R in CNR .
On this one , the leg of the R is on a good slant , and starts farther in on the loop of the R , ( very much like the R in this type )
They are white , and as this Company failed in 1912 , ( according to ,Elton Gish's site ) they are about a 1-2 year production . ( I hated to put that last comment , as I don't have one yet )

Please see the next post on UNCERTAIN C.N.R.

PIC'S . #1 INSIDE OF JOSH GUISINGERS MOULD (NOTE R ) #2 MOULD SIDE . THANKS JOSH
#3-5 PIC'S FROM RICK HESS , #3 IS CNR , NOTE R , #4 NEW LEX IS SECOND FROM LEFT . #5 FAR RIGHT IS BASE OF NEW LEX .

[g lass & g lad]

NOTE ADDED July 16th 2010
I got in another of this type , yet the form is quite different. The wire groove is not sharp , but is rounded . The letters though are the same , so keep checking it pays off . P

UNCERTAIN

In this post I deal with an insulator that I feel still needs further research.

C.N.R. Skinny but tall letters ( 3/8th inch ) The periods are quite square .
This insulators sides above the wire ridge , going up to the dome , are very straight .
Somewhat more like the New Lexington one .
The base on mine is not trimmed , and is quite rounded .

As I don't have one of the New Lexington CNR's , I must go by photo's .
This base looks somewhat like the New Lexington one in the previous post.

In time someone may find a definite answer to this one , but for now I will put forward a possibility.

In 1912 the New Lexington High Voltage Co ran into financial difficulty .
As Elton Gish puts it , they went though a few owners over the next little while .
I feel it is possible that this one , was a short run by the next Co . 1912-13

After this I feel the Canadian Northern Railway went to Pittsburg for their insulators.

[g lass & g lad]

Czechoslovakian Made Wet Process.

These include C.P.R. dome , C.N.R. dome , A.E.R. dome , T. & N.O.RY. dome , T. & N.O.Ry skirt , & 2 mould styles of GTP .
The markings are under the glaze in colors . I am uncertain of the beginning date for these , but the large style GTP would have been the last type made . The GTP ran as a Telegraph system till 1926 .
The heavy glass telegraph type ( Western Union Style , CD 152 <> in Canada ) beginning in 1912 would have begun to make the need for these as telegraph insulators unnessesary .

PIC'S #1 LEFT ROW GOING DOWN . LIGHT YELLOWY GREEN , LIGHT GREEN , MEDIUM GREEN , ALL IN SMALLER PRINT

MIDDLE ROW GOING DOWN , WAS LIKE SMALL PRINT, MEDIUM GREEN BUT CENTER WAS GROUND , 4 OF THESE WERE FOUND IN A BOX , GEORGE GOT A GOOD ONE I GOT A CHIPPED ONE THE OTHER 2 WERE VERY DAMAGED. I CAN ONLY ACCEPT THAT THESE WERE FACTORY DONE CPR'S TO BE USED ON A CNR LINE AS AT $3 EACH IT WAS NOT A SCAM.

MIDDLE ROW , SECOND IS A DARK GRAY GREEN IT HAS ROUND PERIODS , BOTTOM IS A GRAY ALMOST BLACK .

RIGHT ROW IS CNR IN DARK GREEN , CPR IN DARK GREEN AND THEN CPR VERY DARK GREEN
#2 IS SIDE VIEW OF THE CPR'S
#3 IS GTP SMALL LETTERS . OF THE 2 LARGER LETTERED ONES ONE HAS .500 HIGH LETTERS , ONE HAS .450 HIGH .
#4 IS SIDE OF #3
#5 IS GTP LARGER STYLIZED LETTERS IN BLUE , THESE ALSO COME IN GRAY AND BLACK.
#6 IS SIDE OF #5

[g lass & g lad]

Gisborne Pattern .
These were made in London England by Buller Jobson in the 1890-95 era. Maybe 1885-98
Note I've been informed that Buller Jobson was in the 1885 -90 era .
A design by it's name designation , requested by F N Gisborne.
The Grooved base likely patterned after Canadian glass insulators of the era.
They are a wet process . There are according to Mark's book three styles with 5 variants in lettering. I show 2 at this time that give a good idea of these.

[g lass & g lad]

Bullers Marked .
These also are a Buller Jobson 1885-90 product . Some have the Buller's trade mark .

These pic's are from Rick Hess , 3rd from left in pic #1 . Trade mark in #2

[g lass & g lad]

Unmarked Brown .
These little ones are made in the wet process . My best guess is that they are British . Grooved base again . Different shades of brown to sand colors.

[g lass & g lad]

BROWN CNR , INK STAMPED .

This picture is from Robin Harrison ,Center one is the CNR .It is wet process made and has a grooved base.
I don't know where it was made , possibly Britan also. I feel it may be quite new compared to the others . Possibly Canadian National 1920+ because it seems to be wet process but by automated means .

Right is a Canadian Porcelain made piece ( Hamilton ) Left in the pic is a Unmarked Canadian made early dry process from St Johns Quebec.

[g lass & g lad]

This has been a long search , and I'm thankfull to those that have helped . This includes Mark Lauckner for his book as all learning begins with the work of others '

To my wife Lara tollerates my endless hours of reading and searching the net and posting. Thanks .

From here on , others may have pictures of the German and other British etc that I've not posted .

Also the Czech ones that I'm missing.
Perhaps some of the ones which were reported with no pictures for Mark's book may turn up because of the ease of sending emails and posting.

Hope this helps for now , and untill further info comes up is my best understanding at this time. Pete

[g lass & g lad]

July 16th 2010 , a note was added to post # 6 . Pete