GNR CD 143's

[Dominionator]

Has anyone ever explored the possibility that the GNR on said CD143's actually stood for the Great Northern Railway of Canada?

For those unfamiliar with the company, the railway constructed a line from Hawkesbury ON through Grenville QC to Lachute and beyond around 1900. The company became a major constituent of the Canadian Northern Quebec Railway. The CNQR built from Grenville to Deux Montagnes re-using parts of the Carillon & Grenville Railway, which in 1910 was Canada's last operating broad gauge railway. Subsequently around 1914 the CNQR built a 1 mile cutoff 5 miles west of Grenville and abandoned the portion of the GNR into town.

Air photos of the area reveal that the right of way is still visible and runs through some wooded areas. Any glass along the right of way would have been installed only by the GNR. Wouldn't it be interesting if GNR CD143's turned up?

On a side note, I did find a broken GNR on the old CNOR line between Hawkesbury and Ottawa. This part of the CNOR was actually listed in the CNQR timetable as the Grenville Subdivision, even though on paper, the actual owner was the CNOR in Ontario and the CNQR in Quebec. Needless to say, both were part of the Canadian Northern system under the ownership of Mackenzie and Mann. Is it possible the GNR I found was salvaged from the abandoned line in 1915 and re-used elsewhere on the CNOR/CNQR system?

How far west have GNR's turned up in the wild?

Just yet another theory for these beasts.

[Rod Bushfield]

I bought a purple GNR from Craig Boehm who lives in Sask. He turned them up on a farm out there. As to the history side of it I wouldn't have a clue.

[g lass & g lad]

This topic has been done to death . Everyone wants to have some sort of theory. None are based on any fact.
The error idea , is without thought . The idea that a RR Co would accept an error ( of their logo) is just beyond belief.
The Grand Trunk Pacific is a non starter.
The Great Northern Railway of Canada, in Ontario , is not where any of these are found.

They have been found here and there on BOTH CNR &CPR lines.
We have to put both the GNR & GPR in the same conversation.
I'm not going to write a book , because even if I took collectors back in time , there would never be an accepted answer to this or any other question.
I will give a quick info clip that shows the answer.
The Great Northern Railway of MANITOBA. Was owned by the son of James Hill , one of the original creators of the CPR.
Study the history of his fight with the CPR. Here is a link to a site for the GNR ,

http://web2.gov.mb.ca/laws/statutes/private/c09590e.php

This is a site for the GNR in BC , Canada also owned by the Hill's.

http://www.vanc.igs.net/~roughley/gn_fv.html

Do a search on the Great Norther Railway in the USA , It was built by James Hill a Canadian who became an American .
He felt double crossed by the Canadian government. They wouldn't even let anyone build a RR in Canada for 20 years near the CPR.
The only RR built in the US without government help. ( because he was Canadian)

Search James Hill and see the amazing life he had. We should have kept him in Canada , BUT like all era's there is a group who's purpose is greed and power, he was pushed out . With him and others like hom our history may have been far better.

Look at the article #20 in the link to the Manitoba GNR. It gives the right to Louis W Hill to errect and use telegraph.

In Canada , only the Federal government can issue telegraph use.

I believe and am sure that BOTH the GNR & GPR insulators , were ordered at that time , One for Manitoba and one for BC.
By the time they were made , the owners (of the two lines) were told they couldn't run their own telegraph lines and had to use an existing Telegraph Co.
The insulators were not recieved and possibly some sort of compensation made to the Glass Co.
They were then offered to both CN & CP at a discount cost.

[Dominionator]

Pete,

You are probably correct, but since no theory can be proven 100% it will still be a fun excuse to go hunting along a line that's been abandoned for almost 100 years. I think the metal detector will be very handy.

Likewise, the GNR in Quebec had some ambitions plans as well, this is taken from Jim Sandilands page:

(Note that Charles Newhouse Armstrong also controlled the GNR)

In 1905 the Ottawa River Navigation Company and the Carillon & Grenville Railway fell into the hands of Charles Newhouse Armstrong, a somewhat controversial railway promoter who had the idea of buying small existing lines, building missing links, and welding them into a trunk line running from the Gaspé to Sault Ste. Marie. This scheme was known as the Atlantic & Lake Superior Railway and by many other names as well. Armstrong’s methods could most charitably called “irregular” and sometimes bordered on illegality. Armstrong hatched his idea about 1890 and in 1905 he was still at it. His link between Ottawa and Montreal was to have been no less than a high-speed electric line.

[g lass & g lad]

The GNR of Canada ,that you brought up ,only lasted a short while.
The time frame is too early.
I am not sure yet where the idea, that any ,or all of the 3 piece mold CD 143 were made, starting in 1903.
So to use old molds and rework them in 1900-1906 is out as a possibility.

Much of what is put forward about the CD 143 molds is incorrect . Yet people cling to the mis-info.

http://www.education.mcgill.ca/profs...rawdon/gnr.htm

Like you, they say ,well you can't prove that the GN -GP were made for the Hill's, so I'll continue to dream that maybe there's another answer.
If only one would come forward that makes more sence than the stuff that has been passed around for years.

[Dominionator]

Yes- you have been involved in the hobby much longer than I have. There is certainly no shortage of excellent information out there put forward by yourself as well as others that is based on years of research.

I still like to throw idears out there just in case no one else has considered them. Most often my own conclusions have already been proven 30 years earlier, such as my "discovery" of 742's being made in Hudson... old news by the standards of the older collectors.

Often I wish I had been born 35 years earlier when there was more mystery involved in the hobby... and much more glass in the wild to be found. I feel like my generation of collectors, including the young guys 20 years my junior, are going to be the last ones to contribute new info to the hobby and clean out the rest of what remains of the "good stuff" in the wild. While there will always be millions of insulators buried in the wild, soon all that will be left is the prohibitively inaccessible stuff at the bottom of lakes, rivers, swamps and landfills.

Enough of my rant. I'm just itching to get out on another hunt! Enough with winter already!

[g lass & g lad]

It's not how long one has been in the hobby, that counts.
It is that ,the idea put forward, has been given thought and research.
That it makes more sence ,than any other idea's put forward, backed up by as much fact as can be found , at that time.
Often the length of time one is in the hobby is a negative , in true info.
Old stories made up by those who just wanted to seem knowlegable are totally false . Yet those with the very best collections follow along so they won't upset anyone.
I am a relative newcomer to insulators .
The way I collect is to get as many of each mold of the "cheap" ones .
I put "cheap " because the value is only set by those that need a monitary return.
This way of collecting gives me ( along with much research ) a better understanding of the history of these items.
I find as I've said before much of the info in the books to be totally flawed.

Now , for a matter of interest , I am hoping you will tell me, how you decieded that the 742 was made in Hudson.
pete

[Dominionator]

It's simple how I made my conclusion about the 742-Hudson connection... A friend of mine who lives in Montreal contacted the local historical society, and we ended up visiting a fellow there who used to work for the town. He is a history buff himself, and 20 years ago happened to be working on a road leading to the site of the glass works. He tells me that about a foot below the road surface there was a 6 inch layer of broken glass. He scooped up a pile of chunks and kept them. When I was at his place, he showed me his bucket and offered me three chunks of my choice. I immediately recognized the 742 shape in some of the bits and kept part of a 742 in aqua and another in a fizzy jade colour.

He elso told me that there is a pile of glass on private property owned by a rich lawyer... Nesbitt is his name, and it's in the woods in an area that is off limits. THis guy won't let anyone near it unfortunately. I read the peice in CJOW about the guys who went down in 1975 and found parts of 742's with embossing errors. Man, what I would do to be able to dig around there. Some things are just not meant to be!

I have been interested in railway history for as long as I remember, and I have found this knowledge to be very helpful in the insulator hobby. I considered the hobby back in the early 90's, but just had too much on the go at the time. Finally in 2006 I took the plunge. I think we have an opportunity today with all the wonderful tools we find on the Internet, to find the last of the "good stuff" out there. Ottawa has been pretty much cleaned out in the wild, and I have personally taken the best of what's left over the last 2 years. Another hobby of mine, Urban Exploration, or the interest in abandoned/off limits places, has opened some unique doors too. I have turned up parts of 5 emerald green CD31 ESB Co. battery rests in downtown Ottawa as a result of this.

I digress once again. I think I will need to take you up on your offer to come visit. You aren't that far away... Do you know a collector on Hwy 43 east of Monkland? He's got a pile of 154's mounted on posts near the front of his property.

I agree with you on collecting the "cheap" ones. I have learned not to ignore what might seem like "junk". Some of that stuff we might normally pass over can actually be of merit. I have recently been picking over a massive bunch of 154's dumped not too far from home. Maybe a clear one or a CNR or CNR blot-out will turn up.

Chris

[Bushman]

Hi Fellers;;I posted photo,s on Icon ,April 28 2007 if anyones interested,,,on the Original line ,which was Canadian Northern Ontario Railway ,there was 6 pin Crossarms , the middle two pins ,always had One CNR and One GNR,,,Ive picked these up for miles on this line,,Evidents is in the findings,however why they where used i,m not sure,, especially when the cnr insulator was common place to that of the Canadian Northern Line ,Ive traced the Gnr for at least 75 miles,,Line was constructed in the time frame in and around 1906 to 1908 according to history and engravings (stone-chiselled)threw the area.Area is undisclosed ,still in pursuit of the elusive purple one, yet to be found,,,Andy Ont

[g lass & g lad]

Chris . The problem with cullet found on site is that some is broken glass bought to use in the next batch. It may not have come from that glass house
This has led to many incorrect conclusions . At Hamilton and Hudson.
Yet when large amounts are found of one type , it is a good indicator.
The 718 , 726 , 742 group were all made at Hudson.
I'm working on a complex question on the Hudson area, it may take a long time to solve . I get no answers when I ask for info from those that might have the answers.
When the melt comes, ( no snow) pop me a line and come out for a visit.
The guy you refer to is Herman , little flea market on 43 he doesn't collect and has nothing of interest , I used to stop in often but he's very sick and goes for dialisis ( DUH) you know kidney cleaning.

Andy , the date of the line construction , will only give aprox date of the top center insulator. If it hasn't been changed at some point. Often only a few lines were there in the first round, more added over the years.

[Bushman]

G.N.R on must resent find June 20/09 Off of original pole Single crossarm.C,N.O R......

[g lass & g lad]

Hi Andy , nice to be able to find these in original setting . Even if the $$ isn't high it's always the hope of the light purple one that will keep you going. Pete

[Bushman]

Purple is the Quest,Hopefully sooner then later

[g lass & g lad]

Hi All . I haven't read all this article , but it's very in deapth for others if they so choose.

http://home.netcom.com/~whstlpnk/manitoba.html

Pete